Space for Students - Part 4

In our popular Career Profile series, the AAS Committee on the Status of Women in Astronomy has compiled dozens of interviews highlighting the diversity of career trajectories available to astronomers, planetary scientists, and those in related fields.

In a twist on this series, we video-interviewed students in astronomy and astrophysics to highlight their personal and academic career paths. The purpose of this series is three-fold. It aims not only to give a voice and exposure to those who are up and coming in the field but also to give feedback to the Astronomical community at large about the experiences of students who identify as women. The hope is that these interviews will not only share advice and lessons learned but will shed light on how to encourage and inspire more women, from various backgrounds and skill sets, to follow space trajectories, and reach towards the stars.

By: Libby Fenstermacher

Image Credit: L. Wiser

Below is our interview with Lindsey Wiser, a fifth-year Astrophysics PhD Student at Arizona State University (ASU). Lindsey’s current research involves studying exoplanet atmospheres and space science mission development. She remembers first being drawn to space when very young. Beingdriven by existential questions, this passion was inspired and solidified through reading and watching Star Trek: TOS (The Original Series), with her mom. Before ASU, Lindsey graduated from Johns Hopkins University, where she received a Bachelor’s degree in both Engineering Mechanics and Earth and Planetary Science. Lindsey is heavily involved in science policy and advocacy, including leading the Space Generation Advisory Council's (SGAC) Policy and Advocacy Task Force for the NCAC region (North America, Central America, and the Caribbean). Outside of research and policy, Lindsey enjoys spending time with her cat, exploring the outdoors, and watching Formula 1 racing.

Watch the interview here!

Image Credit: L. Wiser

“There are lots of ways to be an astronomer or to be involved in astronomy that aren't necessarily academia, and I think it takes time for everyone to learn that in astronomy. (...) You can help on space missions, or policy and advocacy, or outreach and teaching. There are lots of components to careers in astronomy and astrophysics that aren't just writing papers all day, every day. And that's something that I think sometimes gets lost, especially maybe for kind of earlier or younger students or people kind of earlier in the learning process.”                                                                                                                                             -Lindsey Wiser

Transcript: Libby Fenstermacher and Lindsey Wiser Libby: Hey, everybody. My name is Libby Fenstermacher. Thanks for joining me today. I am here interviewing Lindsay, and she's going to tell us a little bit about being a woman and a student in astronomy. So, thanks so much for joining me. Do you want to tell me a little bit about your background? Lindsey: Yeah, sure. So hi, everybody. So yeah, I got interested in space as a kid. I wasn't sure what to do with that interest immediately. But I knew NASA was cool, and I knew that NASA probably hired engineers. So, I did mechanical engineering first at Johns Hopkins University. And a couple of years into that, I'd done some science internships, and I did the Brooke Owens Fellowship for women and gender minorities in aerospace. And through those, through that fellowship and those internships, I realized I was really excited about science specifically and about policy. And so, I'm now going into my fifth year of my PhD in astrophysics. I study exoplanet atmospheres nowadays, looking at atmosphere models and data from the James Webb Space Telescope. I'm also doing some science, policy, advocacy, and submission work. Libby: Awesome. What inspired you to choose a path in astronomy and astrophysics in the first place? Lindsey: I think so, like I said, kind of from a kid I was already interested in space. I think I was always really excited by the unknown and sort of like existential questions. And so that combined with… I did a lot of reading and watching Star Trek with my mom, kind of all those things combined, into an interest in space exploration. And then, yeah, science specifically came a little bit later on, but like later into my undergraduate degree. But yeah, space from the beginning. Libby: I'm a big Trekkie myself, so that definitely inspired me to want to be a part of this community. Lindsey: Yeah, it's a good community. Libby: It's like I was saying this to another one of my interviewees. It's like NASA…is its own version of Starfleet, you know? Lindsey: That's fair. Libby: But what about astronomy excites you? Lindsey: So, Earth is definitely my favorite planet, but I think that in high school, I thought it… it felt kind of absurd to me that Earth is one planet of so many in a much bigger universe, and that I didn't really learn much about space through school. I kind of had to find it myself. I think nowadays I understand the focus on Earth. I think preserving Earth is critical. Earth is fantastic, but what space does for me is really put Earth into perspective. So, you know, I spend a lot of my day thinking about other planets that aren't even in our solar system. And studying that diversity of planets is really exciting from a personal perspective. But I also think from a broader perspective it helps to put Earth into context and helps us to realize how valuable our own planet really is to protect. Plus, space pictures are fun and pretty, and so I think there's always something to be said for that. And using astronomy as a way to inspire an interest in science and technology, yeah. And then there are also so many components of the space world beyond astronomy. There's so many ways that satellites help people on Earth and Yeah, I don't want to lose sight of all those things either, because astronomy really excites me for the science. But there's also a much broader space community that is really valuable for a lot of different reasons. Libby: I came across a project earlier from the European Space Agency, actually, where they're using satellites to monitor organic cotton production in different regions and to see policy uptakes with that. So, it's really amazing all that we can do with space. Lindsey: Yeah, that’s cool. Libby: What about astronomy is challenging for you and astrophysics is challenging for you. And what have you done to overcome those challenges? Lindsey: Yeah, so I think the process of doing research hasn't always come easily to me, and I don't think I'm alone in that. I think for a lot of astronomers, the process of research is kind of a learned process. It doesn't come naturally to everybody, and that's OK. I think I'm naturally a pretty big-picture thinker. And so when I'm approaching a research problem and there's something that's kind of much more specific or technical, that's not and that hasn't always been easy for me to really narrow my mind in on things like that. But over time, I've definitely learned how to put seemingly very kind of small, specific challenges into a much broader picture in my mind, which helps me really motivate… like, OK, why am I spending multiple days trying to fix this one bug in my code? Like what? What am I really going to get out of that? And putting it in the bigger picture in my brain has really helped. And that's a constantly evolving process of learning to do that well. I've also found that having a diversity of different projects is really valuable to me. So having multiple research projects going on at once or having side projects kind of helping support a mission or helping to do some policy or science advocacy work, having those other ways so that I can. Utilizing other pieces of my brain whenever I need a switch is really helpful for me. Libby: That probably helps you holistically as well with problem-solving. Coming from all those different angles, you're probably able to see things in a unique perspective. Lindsey: Yeah, I think that, yeah, I think all of us like it helps when you just have other, whether it's hobbies or other components of your job, just like being able to use your brain in different ways is helpful. Libby: Yeah, no one track mind has got anything much accomplished. What do you think is a common misperception about astronomers, astronomy and astrophysics, and the educational path in general? Lindsey: Let me think. I think, yeah, a big one, at least that I wish I had kind of understood earlier on, is it doesn't have to be pure research all the time. There are lots of ways to be an astronomer or to be involved in astronomy that aren't necessarily academia, and I think it takes time for everyone to kind of learn that in astronomy. And so certainly people who want to stay in peer research or working in academia, if you want to do that, fantastic. But there's also lots of ways to stay involved that aren't just that. So, you can, you know, help on space missions. Or policy and advocacy or outreach and teaching. Yeah, there's lots of components to careers in astronomy and astrophysics that aren't just writing papers all day, every day. And that's something that I think sometimes gets lost, especially maybe for kind of earlier or younger students or people kind of earlier in the learning process. Yeah. Libby: On the Committee for the Status of Women in Astronomy resource page on the AAS website, there's actually a whole section dedicated to alternative paths within astronomy. So, I would recommend anybody who's watching this video check that out. I will share the link on the blog post itself. What are you currently working on right now? Lindsey: Yeah, so a few things. I think I've mentioned a few of them, but... I am working on looking at data from JWST, the James Webb Space Telescope, and developing atmosphere models to try to compare our observations of exoplanets to models of exoplanet atmospheres to learn more about what are the atmospheres made of and what might their climates be like. A lot of these planets are nothing like the planets we see in our own solar system. And so, it's really a fun puzzle to try to figure that out. I am also a graduate student shadow on the Pandora Smallsat mission, which is a NASA mission that plans to launch next year. That'll help us better understand the stars, the host stars that there are exoplanets orbiting. That'll also help us better understand when we're looking at these systems, what information is coming from the star, and what's coming from the planet. So, it helps us understand both a bit better. And so for that, I've been helping with some outreach initiatives. I've also been helping to plan the commissioning process, which is basically the first month after Pandora launches…What are the tests that we need to do? What are the calibrations that need to happen to make sure that the instruments are working the way we need them to, to get all the science done? Yeah. And then outside of my kind of PhD world, I'm also doing quite a bit of volunteer policy and advocacy work through different channels, but mostly through the Space Generation Advisory Council. Which is an international network of young professionals in the space world that also has some involvement with the United Nations. So yeah, that's another network that I really encourage any early career and student space people to look into cause it's been really valuable for me. Libby: Absolutely. I have been a part of SGAC myself on the Our Giant Leap project group which focuses on gender equality and diversity in the space sector. So, yes, anybody watching this, please get involved with SGAC. If you're under the age of 35, it will…It's just such an amazing network and you won't be disappointed. Lindsey: Yeah, you won’t. Libby: What are your near future plans? What are you looking to do after you get your PhD? Lindsey: Yeah. So yeah, I have a couple more papers to finish up in the coming months and then I'm going to be starting to apply for postdocs and jobs in the fall. So yeah, that's the near future. Kind of the next year-ish of my life is making sure everything's done. So I'm, I'm done with the PhD. Libby: Awesome. But what are your aspirations beyond that? Let's say like 80 when you're 80 years old, what do you want to have accomplished? Lindsey: Yeah, I think that. My answer to that question is constantly evolving, but at the moment I'm really excited about supporting space missions, and helping to formulate future missions. So yeah, working on space missions in some capacity is something I'm really excited about doing more of. And then also the policy work. I definitely see a future in which I'm hopefully working on government policy in some capacity, helping to ensure that all the cool science that we do as astronomers can continue to happen, whether that's through finding funding for it or coming up with policies to help maintain the sustainability of space activity in the future. So yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of really cool kind of policy questions that I also hope to contribute to. Libby: It sounds like you are making your mark there and I'm excited to see what you put forth and what you come up with and I'm just going to be following your journey. Lindsey: Thank you. You too and in the SGAC stuff. I hadn't. I didn't know you were part of that. So that's really awesome. Libby: What advice would you give to someone considering a trajectory similar to yours? Lindsey: Definitely reach out to people who are doing things that you think are cool and just ask them about it. I think, yeah, a big part of figuring out whatever it is I want to do next is always just like talking to random people, cold emailing people, or talking to friends of friends and just being like. What do you do on the day-to-day and not being afraid to ask them what don't you like about your job? Because I found that that's also a really great, great question depending on who you're talking to. But yeah, it helps to just kind of learn what people are actually doing day-to-day, cause sometimes it's not always obvious. Libby: That’s really great advice. Did you receive any mentorship yourself? And if so, do you have any advice that you'd like to share that you received? Lindsey: I certainly have a lot of mentorship. It's definitely important to have people around you that want to support you in doing what you want to do, regardless of whether or not it's what they're doing. So that's one thing I found, finding people who maybe don't have the same career path as me, but are really encouraging and supportive of me doing what I want to do. I think [it] has been fantastic having mentors that are both older than you and kind of have more experience as well as mentors who are the same age as you or even younger than you. I do think that having kind of a diversity of career perspectives can be valuable too. I have a couple of close friends who have very similar kinds of goals to me who are also in the same stage as me. And so they're also mentors in a way that we can kind of support each other and help each other as we try to do things. And then, yeah, finding mentors through whether it's fellowships or cold emails or internships or whatever, kind of maintaining those contacts over time. Yeah, just kind of maintaining those relationships. Yeah, I think one big lesson you asked me about lessons. One big lesson I think I have been learning is how to say no to things. Because if it hasn't become clear, I have a lot of different interests and a lot of different things and I can't do everything at the same time. And so learning to say no to things and to have learning that it's OK to be really focused on one area that I'm excited about at some point in my life. So, I'm doing a lot of science right now for my PhD. It's possible that the next thing will be more mission programmatic focused or policy or maybe more science, but it's OK for those priorities to shift over time. And it just helps you build more experiences overall. So, I think that's, yeah, that's a big lesson that I've learned. Libby: I think it's a good one. It's great advice. I tend to be someone with my fingers in many, many piles at the same time. So, I totally relate to that. No is one of those words that can be hard to learn how to say sometimes. So, if you have any great advice on how to implement that, you'll have to pass it along later. What if, what if any changes would you like to see for women in this field? Lindsey: Yeah, I think definitely encouraging more women and gender minorities in general in astronomy would be fantastic. I do think that certainly, of course, anyone should be able to leave a field if they aren't excited about it, but I would hope that it's not because they didn't feel welcome there. It can be for other reasons. And so, I think I have been mostly lucky in that most of my mentors have been relatively welcoming, and I've had women who I can look up to. But that is not the case for everyone. I certainly know that that's not the case for everyone. And lots of people have subconscious biases too. So yeah, one example is I've been told a couple of times that my being ambitious is a flaw. I don't think that's true. I also don't know how many men get told that, but I would guess not as many. So when it was told to me it didn't come across maliciously, but obviously it was not a good thing to say and so continuing to be aware of biases like that and yeah, just trying to maintain a welcoming environment, I think would be great to constantly see more of. Libby: Yeah, that sort of statement is, I mean, that's the definition of unconscious bias right there. Absolutely meant with no ill intent, I'm sure. But just, yeah, I doubt that was asked to many men. Little curveball here. What's your favorite movie or TV show? I know we talked about Star Trek…. Lindsey: Yeah, I mean, that's the classic answer. So, it's kind of a boring answer coming from an astronomer, but I do think it's the one I have to go with just because, I don't know, I haven't. Yeah, I think for a sentimental perspective, I have to go with Star Trek. Libby: Which series? Lindsey: So, I grew up on the original series. So, if we're going sentimental, definitely, definitely that one. But I also loved it when the movies with Chris Pine were coming out in my kind of teenage years, I think. So yeah, those are great. Libby: They're coming out with another one of those. Lindsey: Oh, really? I didn't even know that. That's exciting. Libby: Yeah, I don't know when it is, but I know it’s happening. So keep your eyes peeled on your Google feed. Lindsey: Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah. Libby: Is there anything else you want to share today? Lindsey: No, just, yeah. Thanks for having me. It was a good chat. I think this is definitely valuable. Having conversations like this is valuable. So yeah, I encourage people to just kind of reach out if they have any questions or want to chat or anything like that. Libby: Thank you so much for meeting with me. This has been great, and I can't wait to share your story. Lindsey: Hey, thanks so much. Libby: Yep. Have a great day. You too. Lindsey: You too. Libby: Bye. Lindsey: Bye.

Career Profile: Have Sextant, Will Travel

The AAS Committee on the Status of Women in Astronomy has compiled dozens of interviews highlighting the diversity of career trajectories available to astronomers, planetary scientists, etc. The interviews share advice and lessons learned from individuals on those paths.

Below is our interview with Dr. Jennifer Bartlett, the Project Scientist for Astrophysics at the Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian. Throughout her career, she has been interested in astrometry, the history of astronomy, computer science, and library science and worked in government and industry between degrees. She earned her bachelor’s degree at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI) and her graduate degrees at the University of Virginia, from which she earned her PhD in 2007.

Image Credit: Jennifer Bartlett

Where have you lived and worked?

I was born and raised in Virginia. When I left for college, I did not imagine that I would return to my hometown. However, after completing my bachelor’s degree, I returned to Virginia to live and work and eventually return to school. My graduate education was initially financed by my employers until the University of Virginia insisted I quit my engineering job to go to school full-time for a year. I continued to live in Virginia until last year. There is something both unnerving and uplifting to give a community outreach talk knowing your high school science teachers are listening.

What was your last academic position in astronomy/physics? Kinnear Chair in Physics, US Naval Academy 2021-2023, a 2-3 year visiting position that rotates between the Physics and Chemistry departments. Visiting Assistant Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Hampden-Sydney College 2006-2007, 2001-2002. I taught at the all-male Hampden-Sydney while I was in graduate school. The first time was the year after I completed my master’s degree. The second time was the year I defended my dissertation. What were the most important factors that led you to leave astronomy and/or academia? Much as I enjoyed teaching at Hampden-Sydney College and the US Naval Academy, I was not in the right position at the right time for a permanent position. My other opportunities for academic positions did not align well with opportunities for the rest of my family, either employment for my husband or education for my son. Our recent relocation to Massachusetts after years in Virginia was more challenging than we anticipated, but we believe it is the best choice for everyone. Because I enjoy teaching and mentoring, I am looking for opportunities to include more students in my work at CfA. Last summer, I sailed on the US Coast Guard Barque Eagle from Hamilton, Bermuda, to Halifax, Canada, to train cadets in celestial navigation, a very practical application of astronomy.

Working aloft on USCGC Healy
Image Credit. J. Bartlett

If you have made a career change, what was your age at the time? I have made multiple career changes, most recently in my 50s. Leaving RPI with an undergraduate degree in physics, I went into political campaign management, lobbying, and legislative service. After a few years, I tried information security for about a year. Next, I returned to using my physics background as a space systems engineer. Seven years after completing my undergraduate education, I started a part-time graduate program in astronomy using my employee education benefits. While still in graduate school, I moved from space systems to naval systems engineering and eventually to teaching. After completing my doctorate, which required 10 years, I joined the US Naval Observatory as a geodesist. I then moved into astronomical software application development. Three years ago, I tried teaching again when a temporary position opened at the US Naval Academy. Each change has brought challenges and opportunities. I have learned something and found interesting experiences with each new position. What, if any, additional training did you complete in order to meet the qualifications? To move fully from systems engineer to astronomer, I completed my doctoral work. To be a better teacher, I participated in education workshops offered at AAS meetings and through the teaching and learning centers at my institutions. As a graduate student, I also had a fellowship in instructional technology. I am currently taking training in effective lesson development from the University of California, Los Angeles. As I moved into software development, I took numerous short professional development classes in programming and software engineering.

To move from individual technical contributor to supervisor, I completed a Navy executive leadership training program, including earning my Project Management Professional certification and multiple courses at the Annapolis School of Seamanship. For privileged access to Navy networks, I earned a CompTIA Security+ certification. I will probably undertake some more formal training in computer and information science for my current position over the next few years. Describe job hunting and networking resources you used and any other advice/resources. I obtained most of my early non-astronomy jobs through networking. Even as I moved into astronomy positions, I maintained my engineering networks by keeping in touch with former colleagues and attending functions. Moving from graduate school into a professional career in astronomy, I leaned heavily on the school placement office. I made consistent appointments with the same counselor and developed a strong relationship with her as I worked to improve and tailor all of my application materials. More recently, I worked with Alaina Levine through the AAS employment services to make a late career change within astronomy. I have also participated in mentoring circles offered by the Association for Women in Science, District of Columbia chapter. Some of the best advice I received at my first or second AAS meeting was that the best use of my time at meetings was networking, regardless of whether I was actively looking for a job. I try not to miss an opportunity to connect with people, which strengthens all of our relationships.

What has been your career path since you completed your degree? I completed my doctorate while teaching full-time (4/3 load) at Hampden-Sydney College as a sabbatical replacement. At the end of that 1-year contract, I accepted a GS-12/13 career position with the Naval Observatory in the Astrometry Department. I learned about the position from staff members to whom my advisor had introduced me and with whom I had remained in contact for several years. After 2 years, I moved to a GS-12 position in the Astronomical Applications Department. In my first months in that position, I learned I was pregnant. Instead of full-time maternity leave using all of my available leave, I negotiated to work from home for several months using a few hours of leave each week, I returned to work full-time in person in time to apply for the position of GS-13/14 division chief, supervising a nominal team of 4 government astronomers and 3 contractors. After 11 years as division chief, I accepted a rotation as Kinnear Chair at the US Naval Academy. I stumbled across this position when I was on the institution website looking for other information. I taught one course each year in the general physics program, supported astronomy lectures, and mentored research students. Although my rotation was extended to the full three years, I chose to join the CfA as project scientist for astrophysics. I learned of this most recent opportunity through a banner on the ADS website. What have been particularly valuable skills for your current job that you gained through completing your degree? The most important technical skill for my current position is one I developed as part of my degree program: how to do research - how to ask a question, how to consider what additional information I need, how to develop a means of testing the ideas I have about the topic, and then how to summarize what I have learned for others to use. This skill applies to the research portion of my job and to the service portion of my job, and what changes is the types of questions I am asking. I can ask what stars are most practical to observe during nautical twilight or I can ask how we index bibliographies within a digital library. I am still working on both. The most important soft skill for my current position is one I developed as part of my degree program: managing multiple priorities, projects, and people simultaneously. As a graduate student, I had my academic responsibilities alongside a professional career and a separate family business. As a project scientist, I have multiple projects designed to improve our services, community outreach

Bartlett on her first day at CfA
Image Credit: J. Bartlett

responsibilities, and leadership roles in AAS working groups along with my personal research. In both cases, I have to manage a family life as well. Describe a typical day at work. Like many jobs, a typical day involves too many meetings and too much staring at a screen. Today, I arrived at CfA at 9:30 AM after a 1.5-hour commute due to bad traffic, which I made longer by detouring to the Post Office to mail legal documents related to a family business matter. At 10:00 AM, I attended an in-person interview for a new librarian hire. Between the interview and a virtual planning meeting for the NASA booth at the January AAS meeting, I worked on a proposal for a fellow to assist me with illuminance research and uploaded data to an Open Science Foundation project as a step towards making it publicly available. I ate lunch at my desk, a habit that I am trying to break. I had planned to attend a stress test of a new feature that would improve the reading of scanned literature hosted by ADS; however, that session was deferred to next week. I had planned to attend a virtual meeting of the Astrophysics Data Center Executive Council (ADEC) but my supervisor recommended that I simply submit an update for the minutes. Instead, he met in-person with all the project scientists to review which professional meetings we planned to attend over the next year and would we be staffing a booth or presenting. We were briefly sidelined by a discussion of the network issues ADS and SciX have been experiencing. As a further aside, these issues were also preventing a colleague from compiling a bibliography of all the papers written by Steve Murray, one of the founders of ADS. The biography of Murray will appear in the third edition of the Biographical Encyclopedia of Astronomers that I am editing. After that, I worked on a draft lesson plan for a training module intended to teach librarians about using the new Science Explorer (SciX) interface and about Open Science resources. Then, I met virtually to discuss our progress in designing these lessons with the librarian with whom I am collaborating. Next, I cross-referenced candidates for the ADS and SciX users groups and issued invitations for new members of the ADS Users Group. The commute home took only an hour. My menfolk were at Boy Scouts so I ate dinner alone, chatted with my mother on the telephone, and, then, attended a virtual Compline service. By then, my men were home and I put my son to bed. I am now writing this profile, which I should have completed last week. Earlier this week, I chased down registrations for the January AAS meeting for our team here and the Oral History Interview program. I started collecting information for a HAD News article about the Astro observatory. I looked over illuminance measurements made by a colleague during the 2017 total solar eclipse for comparison with my 2024 experiment. I walked across Harvard to collect a book about the development of astrophotography because CfA no longer has a local library. I attended a colloquium given by Stephanie Jarmak, our project scientist for planetary science, on her asteroid research. I reviewed recent claims of planets orbiting Barnard’s Star and sent the latest paper on the topic to my graduate advisor who is now retired. I participated in a planning meeting for the November ADS User

Bartlett and her son on eclipse day.
Image Credit: J. Bartlett

Group. Looking forward to the rest of the week, the project scientists will meet with the leader of our development team to discuss priorities for the next year. We have a general staff meeting. I have two virtual appointments to mentor proteges: one is a non-traditional graduate student and the other is a mid-career scientist. I also need to write a recommendation for my summer intern from last summer. I will meet with a developer about assigning keywords from the Unified Astronomy Thesaurus to scholarly articles but need to review the 100 test cases he sent me so far. The senior editors of the Biographical Encyclopedia of Astronomers will meet this week to coordinate assignments. I anticipate editing at least two articles. On a personal level, I attended the live (touring company) Mamma Mia! with my husband last night but will probably spend this weekend working on the tax filings for our family business. All things considered, going to sea sounds like a wonderful idea right at the moment. How many hours do you work in a week? I plead the 5th. What is your salary? I am a Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory trust fund employee in the Boston metropolitan area, IS-1330-14 step 10, with a mandated annual salary of $179,462. What is your level of satisfaction with your current job? Very high. What are the most enjoyable aspects of your job? I enjoy the flexibility to define my position and pursue my own interests while contributing to an essential community resource.

Showing how a sextant works
Image Credit: J. Bartlett

What do you like most about your working environment? My current team is mutually supportive and bound together by a common passion for ADS. What opportunities does your job provide to be creative and/or to take initiative? On the creative side, I am exploring how to better promote and exploit public libraries within ADS. I am also considering how to harvest dissertations for ADS and the Astronomy Genealogy Project more efficiently than the current practice of hand entering all the data. All the project scientists are thinking about what relevance means within our discipline and how we would express that algorithmically. With respect to taking the initiative, I am working with the new AAS Working Group on the Unified Astronomy Thesaurus to recover from the loss of the part-time curator previously provided by the Wolbach Library. While the abrupt closure of the Wolbach Library was very disruptive, it is an opportunity to re-think everything about the Thesaurus and to revitalize this project to provide a single, controlled vocabulary to describe research products in astronomy, planetary science, and heliophysics. How satisfied are you with your work-life balance in your current job? To the extent that my life is out of balance, the fault is in my own enthusiasms. I am very intellectually engaged in many of the improvements to ADS on which we are working. I enjoy working with my scientific data. I am passionate about the preservation of our astronomic heritage and understanding the human cultural aspects of our science. I like doing public outreach projects. My son is at the angsty teen phase where no parent could understand the social trauma of high school nor remember how to solve an algebra equation or punctuate an essay. He does not, however, hesitate to ask me to work from home on a school holiday so he can have friends over or invite me to play D&D with his friends when tax season passes. Although I only work in-person at CfA three times a week, the hour plus commute from Framingham means that I see little of my family on those days. However, living closer would mean less satisfactory accommodations for our family. How family-friendly is your current position? My supervisor and my colleagues have been nothing but supportive of maintaining work-life balance. Our discussion today of what professional meetings we should attend included an appraisal of whether the anticipated travel would put too much stress on our families. The three-day a week in-person requirement is very much tempered by flexibility to take care of family matters, a sick child, a school play, What advice do you have for achieving work-life balance (including having a family)? I am blessed by a supportive husband and a delightful (for a teen, that is) son. I have an extended family, including elderly parents, that I love. My life would be diminished by the loss of any of these. On the other hand, I do have to work to support my family. However, I cannot work or take care of them if I do not maintain my own mental and physical health. Everyone’s requirements and responsibilities regarding work and family life are different. Each of us must determine our own definition of balance and figure out for ourselves what we need to accomplish that. In addition, the balance point will probably shift over the course of our lives. We need to keep assessing our situation and our needs. Do not be afraid or ashamed to ask for what you need to be a balanced and successful person. What do you do for fun (e.g., hobbies, pastimes, etc.)? My family are medieval re-enactors. I enjoy archery, axe throwing, fencing, dance, cooking, embroidery, weaving, and nalbinding. I am determined to master the drop spindle. I look forward to some version of my schedule that allows me to resume swimming on a regular basis. I read voraciously. My husband generously refrained from commenting on the number of my books, even when two trips with a pick-up truck were required when I was moving offices. Can we include your email address for people who may want to contact you directly about your specific career route? Certainly, jennifer.bartlett_at_cfa.harvard.edu (replace the _at_ with @).

Meet your CSWA: Rayna Rampalli

Born and raised in California, Rayna Rampalli (she/her) is a fifth-year NSF GRFP fellow in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Dartmouth College. She graduated from Wellesley College with a bachelor's in astrophysics and spent two years doing astronomy research through Columbia

University's Bridge to the Ph.D. Program in STEM. With Prof. Elisabeth Newton, she is focused on completing her dissertation research - using stars as tools to understand the evolution of planets and our own Milky Way. Rayna is committed to making astronomy more inclusive and accessible. 

Describe the first time you made a personal connection with the planets and stars

Growing up in California, I didn’t have access to the darkest night skies (though you’d be surprised what you can see in Sacramento!). When I was nine years old, I attended a summer camp at a local science museum with a planetarium. All of us were always excited to spend time there learning about various constellations and how different cultures interpreted them and watching videos about our solar system. This shared interest in the universe united under one sky and the calmness of the planetarium has stayed with me over the years.

How did you end up working in the field?

I am definitely one of those people who never grew out of her childhood interests. But as a high schooler, I wanted to know what a career in astronomy was actually like and was lucky enough to attend the University of Arizona’s advanced astronomy camp led by Dr. Don McCarthy. We spent an entire week observing and analyzing data using the telescopes on Kitt Peak, and I definitely saw myself content to do this for the rest of my life!

Who inspires you?

At the beginning of graduate school, my advisor encouraged our research group to develop a mission statement for ourselves based on Dr. Lucianne Walkowicz’s workshops. In writing this, I realized how my goals to engage in open and inclusive science are a reflection of the incredible mentors I’ve had in my academic journey. They have guided me with a level of integrity, support, openness, and commitment to improving inclusion that have allowed me to feel like I deserve and belong in this field. The grit, resilience, and unwavering support of my family is also a daily inspiration to leave every space I enter better than I found it.

What community issues are important to you and why?

In the last decade, astronomy has made significant progress in identifying DEI issues and proposing recommendations. However, the execution of these initiatives can fall short and lead to a lack of true, sustainable change. To ensure meaningful impact, we need to incorporate expertise from programs like Movement Consulting and the expertise of social scientists to effectively implement and sustain these efforts. Additionally, while much of the focus in DEI efforts has rightly been on how identity impacts inclusion, we also need to consider more subtle forms of privilege, such as the advantages tied to certain institutions over others. Addressing these institutional inequities is crucial to creating a more level playing field. 

Tell us about a favorite moment so far in your career.

As a senior at Wellesley College, a few other physics majors and I started documenting how courses at Wellesley were historically designed to, and successfully did, support women pursuing physics and astronomy. I remember us digging through materials in the library archives and reading letters from Sarah Frances Whiting and Annie Jump Cannon, who was the first woman astronomer I ever learned about. It was truly a full circle and learning-from-history moment. 

What advice would you give to someone who wants to take the same career path as you?

Do not underestimate the power of collaboration and being unafraid to admit you do not know something. Seek opportunities to grow your mentorship network beyond your current institution.

What do you do for fun?

I love swimming both in the pool as part of the Upper Valley (UV) Rays masters swim team and in whatever various natural bodies of water I’m near at the moment. You can also usually find me watching the latest bad TV shows available on Netflix.

If you weren’t in the field of astronomy, what would you be doing?

I took a few American studies courses in college that were super fun and contextualized my own experiences as a South Asian woman of color. I would probably pursue a PhD in it to understand American society, history, and culture in all its diversity and complexity from an interdisciplinary perspective.

What changes would you like to see for women in astronomy?

I recently read this article about how women in academia end up doing all the “academic housework” at their institution. These inequities in labor begin as early as college and propagate to the larger systemic inequities we see in the field. I envision a world where this is longer the case. I also want to encourage the discourse that women are not a monolith and to value the unique contributions and identities women bring to astronomy, particularly women of color. 

What are your goals as a part of the CSWA?

I am excited to help the CSWA implement the many impactful projects outlined in its strategic plan. As an early-career researcher, I am also committed to increasing engagement and involvement from other early career folks with the CSWA and the other working groups in the AAS. 

Career Profile: From Science Research to Science Education

The AAS Committee on the Status of Women in Astronomy has compiled dozens of interviews highlighting the diversity of career trajectories available to astronomers, planetary scientists, etc. The interviews share advice and lessons learned from individuals on those paths.

Below is our interview with Mallory Conlon, the Outreach Astronomer at Yerkes Observatory in Williams Bay, Wisconsin. She earned her M.S. in astronomy at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and has been engaged in science education and outreach for most of her career. She describes her current position as a collaboration of science education, astronomy, public outreach, and event management.

What were the most important factors that led you to leave astronomy and/or academia? There were several factors - both internal and external - that led me to leave astronomy, and then eventually to leave academia. First, my reasons for leaving astronomy: My first semester as a graduate student was incredibly difficult. I was overwhelmed by my teaching duties, a too-high course load, and starting a new research project with a less-than-supportive advisor. I didn’t, at that time, feel comfortable setting boundaries or positively advocating for myself (in fact, I’m better but still struggle with that today). I found myself not enjoying the field anymore and wanting to finish my degree as quickly as possible. One positive of this time period is that I discovered how much I loved teaching and sharing science with others, as opposed to doing traditional research. My interests and skills were better aligned with the field of science education than astronomy, and I wanted to pursue that career path. I was incredibly lucky that the astronomy department I was in supported this exploration - this is not always the case. They agreed to me having an external advisor for my Master’s research (which focused on astronomy education). They also provided me with a teaching assistantship position focused on educational media design for an ASTRO 100 course, which ultimately led to my first job in instructional design after graduating. I can’t overstate how crucial that support was in transitioning from traditional science to science education. After graduating, I stayed in academia working in educational consulting for almost 7 years before deciding to return to science outreach and education as a career. Though my immediate colleagues were fantastic to work with, I was quickly reminded how toxic certain people in academia can be toward women in STEM and those without PhDs. These stories are for another day…but after an unpleasant start, I felt limited support and very little desire from others to work toward systemic change that would improve the work environment or change the culture. Hence, my reason for leaving academia after almost 10 years: the bureaucracy of R1 academia moved too slowly and was too resistant to changes that would support people like me (e.g., non-faculty, non-PhD, education-focused, women). I needed to work in a place that was willing to grow and change, and the idea of joining what was essentially a start-up non-profit where I could help shape the work environment was incredibly appealing. It also offered a return to astronomy that filled me with so much excitement. It’s not without its challenges, but the flexibility and willingness to grow and change offered by Yerkes is something I never quite found in

Yerkes at night, during a lunar eclipse in 2022.
Photo Credit Brian Finch,

academia. If you have made a career change, what was your age at the time? I’ve made two career changes. One was when I was 23 years old, and I transitioned almost completely away from science and astronomy and into general curriculum development and higher education consulting. During this time period, I did some consulting work for a publishing company focused on generating astronomy content for K-12 learners, but in general did not do any science education or outreach work until I transitioned into (or back into) science education and outreach at age 29. What have been particularly valuable skills for your current job that you gained through completing your degree? The skills from my astronomy degrees that have been especially valuable at my current job are: problem solving, time management, comfort using technology, setting up and using small telescopes, and writing and presenting about complex science concepts. Of course, as an astronomy educator, the astronomy content I learned is also incredibly valuable. Describe a typical day at work. One of my favorite things about my job is that there isn’t really a typical day. Some days I’m welcoming school groups for tours of the observatory, some days I’m working with interns on their

Mallory and students conduct an experiment
with lasers in 2021. Photo credit: Ebony Cox /
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

research presentations, some days I’m preparing to host an open house or other large scale event for the public. There’s also a lot of writing (emails, proposals, reports), coordinating, and planning that happens behind the scenes. How many hours do you work in a week? It depends on the week! Typically it is 35-40 hours, but there are occasional weeks with many events that end up closer to 50-60 hours. How family-friendly is your current position? The leadership at Yerkes are incredibly supportive and accommodating of the needs of people with families or other caretaking responsibilities. They provide very flexible work-from-home options so you can go to doctor appointments or on field trips without using vacation or sick days; no questions asked when you have to bring your child into work during holiday breaks or other random situations that come up when you are a parent; and just in general are supportive of the idea that work doesn’t always have to come first in a person’s life in order for great work to be done. What advice do you have for achieving work-life balance (including having a family)? Some workplaces are more open than others to providing options that improve work-life balance, and it comes from a place of privilege to be able to put up boundaries that protect your time. I’m incredibly lucky that I’m in a position where work-life balance is an option, and where I, for example, can turn down job offers that won’t provide me with the work-life balance I need. With that said, I’ll speak from my experience of navigating work-life balance in academic and academic-adjacent positions.

Yerkes staff, summer interns, and mentors (2024).

In general, I’ve found that roles within or adjacent to academia are surprisingly flexible, with two caveats. First, you have to ask. Seriously, just ask. Some jobs offer hybrid work options up front, but this isn’t quite the norm (yet). Any time I am negotiating a job offer, especially since having my son, I always inform them up front that I need flexible work hours and a set number of days I work from home. If they aren’t open to negotiation, then I move on (however hard that may be). Second, having work-life balance may lead to your career moving more slowly than those who value work more than their personal lives. Unfortunately, excessive work is still a virtue in the U.S., and while you may not be actively punished, you will not be rewarded for setting boundaries around how you work. This is something I’ve had to accept, which has not been impossible to navigate because I have a supportive partner and extended family. Ultimately, no one will protect your time but you. It's up to you to know what aspects of life are important to you and what you are willing to compromise, and then set those boundaries accordingly based on your needs, even if it means less money or rewards over time. What do you do for fun (e.g., hobbies, pastimes, etc.)? I have a 5-year-old son, and I love to spend time with him and my husband exploring our state and traveling. I enjoy running and ran my first half-marathon this year in Disney World, and I’m currently training for the Door County Fall 50 relay at the end of October. I also spend a lot of my free time volunteering as a foster and social media coordinator for Fetch Wisconsin Rescue, a local dog rescue non-profit based out of Madison, WI. Can we include your email address for people who may want to contact you directly about your specific career route? Yes! It is mconlon_at_yerkesobservatory.org (replace the _at_ with @).

Space for Students - Part 3

In our popular Career Profile series, the AAS Committee on the Status of Women in Astronomy has compiled dozens of interviews highlighting the diversity of career trajectories available to astronomers, planetary scientists, and those in related fields.

In a twist on this series, we video-interviewed students in astronomy and astrophysics to highlight their personal and academic career paths. The purpose of this series is three-fold. It aims not only to give a voice and exposure to those who are up and coming in the field but also to give feedback to the Astronomical community at large about the experiences of students who identify as women. The hope is that these interviews will not only share advice and lessons learned but will shed light on how to encourage and inspire more women, from various backgrounds and skill sets, to follow space trajectories, and reach towards the stars.

By: Libby Fenstermacher

Image Credit: C. Whitford

Below is our interview with Chelsea Whitford, a non-traditional adult student currently taking classes at the community college level in preparation for a future astronomy and/or astrophysics degree. Previously, she earned an Associate Degree in Criminal Justice from Suffolk County Community College and a Bachelor's degree in Political Science with a certificate in International Relations from Arizona State University. Chelsea, a mother of three young children, remembers first being inspired by the stars as a young child herself while looking through a telescope at comet Hale-Bopp with her uncle. Now, having found her way back to this original passion, she is a strong advocate for encouraging women of all ages, in any “season” of life, to find a way to follow their dreams in STEM. She believes that a key to attracting and retaining more women in Astronomy and STEM, in general, is to provide a culture, at both the educational and organizational levels, that is supportive and accommodating towards adults with caregiving responsibilities. For her, a positive work-life balance and taking time to pursue one’s goals are the keys to success. Chelsea hopes that by following her own personal trajectory, she can inspire others, both young and adult, to follow theirs. Outside of her educational pursuits, Chelsea enjoys family time, traveling, and sharing her love of the stars with her children.

Watch the video here!

“..we have an 8-year-old and five-year-old twins, (...). And we're always telling them, you know, I believe in you, I believe you can do difficult things and hard things. But I have to remember that I need to lead by example with that and that means knowing and believing in myself. That I can do difficult things too. So, when they see that mom can do difficult things, that gives them encouragement and the courage to say, OK, mom can do it, I can do it.” - Chelsea Whitford

Transcript: Libby Fenstermacher and Chelsea Whitford

Libby: Hi everybody, my name is Libby Fenstermacher, thanks for joining me today. I'm here today with Chelsea and she's going to tell us about her journey in astronomy thus far, being a student and being a woman, and her experiences with that. So, thanks for joining me today, do you want to tell us a little bit about your background?

Chelsea: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure and it's an honor to be here and chat with you and give my experience. Hopefully, it can maybe give other people encouragement and give a different perspective that maybe others have not considered. So yeah, I'm a non-traditional adult learner. I am also a mom of three young kids and right now a part-time student. Hopefully, in the future, I'll be a full-time student. But right now, with little kiddos, it's difficult to do full-time schooling right now. My background. So right out of high school, I started in college, university. I did one year of traditional four-year, freshman year, entry-level, beginning, and realized I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. So, I switched to Community College and then I was working at the same time as a lot of young kids are, and I wound up getting my associate's degree in criminal justice. At that point, I thought maybe I'd want to go into law enforcement or eventually law school, and that was kind of the route I took. But life happened just like it does for so many of us. So, it was years before I finished my degree, my bachelor's, and I wound up doing that and I finished that about 10 years later.

Image Credit: C. Whitford

Chelsea: My then fiancée, now husband, went into the military, as active-duty Air Force. And so, when I finished my degree, my bachelor's from Arizona State University, it was in political science. And then I became a military spouse for 12 years, which was just a journey in and of itself. So, he just a couple of years ago transitioned out, and at that time of him trying to navigate his transition out of the military, it was my turn to navigate my own transition out of that and out of that world and, out of our scenario of moving every couple of years, which was… I think we did seven moves in 10 years. And with that, it's really hard to oftentimes find your own identity or find and keep up with your own career. So, I did a lot of customer service kind of work. I did student teaching, long-term subbing, and things like that in schools where we were based. And then we had kids. And so, I became a stay-at-home mom for the latter half of that. So, now I’m on my own journey to find and work my way through restarting my career; I’m going back to school, and kind of just navigating that now that he's out.

Libby: Awesome. I'm so excited for you. It’s never too late to go back and follow your passion. And I'm so happy that you get that chance now.

Chelsea: Yeah, you know, that's kind of the thing is that you never know where life is going to take you, and you never know what dreams you may have had when you were younger or things that you really enjoyed, may pop back up, as maybe back then they didn't seem realistic, but you never know. Life is a crazy journey.

Libby: Yeah, I can totally relate. I'm an adult learner myself and decided to go back to school at thirty-three to finish my degree. The world has changed a lot since when we were eighteen, and nineteen as well. So, I'm happy we both now have the chance to focus on our passions in space.

Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely.

Libby: What inspired you to choose astronomy in the first place?

Chelsea: You know, it's funny because I've always liked science and I feel like growing up, you know, back in the 90s, early 2000s, there was very much this idea of that you were either good at like English and history, you liked to read and you liked to write, you could write really well, or you were really good at math and science. And when you met with your career counselors. You know, in high school, they kind of go, OK, what career path do you want to take? Let's take these tests and figure out what suits your personality. And those are great. But I've always had a passion for learning and studying and trying to figure things out. But I never felt that I was good enough, I guess, to kind of go into that realm. And so, I went more of the social sciences aspect because that was, I felt like at that point where my strengths were. But I do remember when I was a kid, I grew up in upstate New York, like really rural upstate New York, kind of by the Canadian border. And we had, we lived in this old farmhouse, and we were, you know, the nearest neighbor was like a mile down the road. And part of what I vividly remember as a kid was my dad would take tarps and lay them out on the field, like overlooking the hills and we would just sit out there. Because it was so dark, you could see all the stars. You could see so many stars. And so, we would sit out there and look for shooting stars. And then I remember also my uncle when Hale-Bopp was around. My uncle had a telescope and I; you know, I think I was 7 or 8 at that time and he had a telescope and he'd get it out and we would look at Hale-Bopp… and so maybe I was like 9. But it was just one of those things that you… just one of those core memories that sticks with you and, I don't know I've always loved science, but I just never felt that I was good enough at it.

Chelsea: And so, I think the other part of that is I grew up in kind of a more conservative community. And in that community, it was often really hard to reconcile, you know, faith and beliefs with science. It always seemed kind of juxtaposed and at odds with one another, and I never really found anyone or found a community to kind of help navigate or reconcile that until I became an adult. And then it was, you know, then you learn to kind of start looking outside the box and realizing that it's OK to ask questions. Even if you have faith, it's OK to ask questions and to kind of delve through that. And so that was something I had [to work through]. I had listened to a few scientists actually a couple of astrophysicists and a couple of organizations that were faith-based, but also believed that faith and science worked together. And then that was kind of my jumping point. I was like, you know what, hey, it's OK to have faith and science work together. And that's something I'm still personally working through and trying to navigate what that looks like for myself, but it doesn't have to be at odds with one another. And, as my husband started to transition out of the military and I happened to just take it for fun, I took an astronomy course online because I've always loved it and I'd taken them before. I took the, you know, astronomy was my science of choice for my freshman year of college way back when… it had been 20 years. And so, I said, you know what, I'm just going to do it for fun. Like, let's figure it out, see what kind of direction I want to go. And then at that point, I was hooked. And after a lot of talking through and a lot of encouragement with my husband and others around me; that said, you know, I was really apprehensive about this, the math and the coding and the, you know, the technology aspect of it, stuff that was just completely foreign to me. And so with that encouragement, it just kind of came along and doors have opened and here I am with you today chatting.

Libby: What a wonderful journey. I went to Catholic school from first through twelfth grade. So, I understand and relate to that juxtaposition and search for that.

Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely. And it makes it hard. It makes it hard, you know when you're not sure what it is you're questioning or what you want answers to, you know, on a kind of more of a deeper level when it's when you don't have those answers or the ability to find out those answers. But you know, it's that journey of saying, OK, it's OK to ask questions.

Libby: What are your aspirations? Where, what do you see yourself doing with astronomy?

Chelsea: You know, I'm still kind of on that journey. It's going. You know, I get asked by family members, oh, how much more school do you have? And all I can say is I have a lot of school left. It's going to take me a long time. I'm trying not to put a time frame on where I have ideas and dreams, but I don't necessarily have, you know, in five years this is what I want to be doing because as a mom and as a wife and having a family, my husband travels for work and so I'm often the sole caretaker for our kids. There are times where I have to be fully immersed in the family side and have to take a back burner to what I'm working on. And so, eventually, I would love to get a doctorate someday. I'm not quite sure in what. I want to study astrophysics, I believe, but I'm not sure what area or avenue yet that I'm interested in. I think I'm feeling that out still and dipping my toes in different areas of study and research that will give me some ideas of what I like and what I don't like or where I want to navigate towards. So yeah, ultimately, you know, it's funny you think about Brian May, the musician who went back to school like 50 years later and finished his PhD. And so it might take me 50 years to finish my PhD, but I'll get there eventually.

Libby: It's for you and no one else, so, it doesn't matter how long it takes.

Chelsea: Exactly.

Libby: What about astronomy excites you?

Chelsea: There's so much unknown I think is what it really is. There's such a vast amount of information that we've learned over the last 100 years but there's so much that is still so unknown and it's a never-ending path of learning and such a cool realm to study. There are things that people don't understand. Even scientists, there are things that they don't understand. But getting to share that with my kids, when we take walks at night or we go stargazing and my kiddos get to look up and have those same experiences that I had as a kid looking at the stars and looking for, shooting stars or watching the moon and looking at the different topography of the moon and just getting to share those experiences with my kids, I think is just such a cool thing as a mom. But I think also seeing women in STEM come up into STEM fields is really cool and it's such an impactful position to be in, I think on a personal level, but also just knowing that I get to be a part of a group of women that in this era, are coming up and doing absolutely incredible and amazing things and contributing. And so, there are so many amazing things about astronomy…

Libby: Overwhelming it is.

Chelsea: It's really hard, especially so early on in my studies and my journey, it's really hard to pick and choose. But I think that just the vastness of our universe… and really on a more philosophical level it kind of gets you down to like… who are we as humans and what's our purpose and then how do we… I don't know it's… yeah… there's so much there's the philosophical part and then back to the scientific research and that's just never-ending, and is always going to be making strides in different areas.

Libby: The philosophical part is what drew me to wanting to work within space as a sociologist in the first place. You know… what is this reality? And my favorite question is, how do you create something out of nothing and how could nothing ever exist? That one I'm waiting for someone to tell me the answer to.

Chelsea: You know, it seems like that's kind of the question, right? I mean it's hard to fathom that. Yeah, it's hard to fathom where we all came from, what the universe came from, and where it started and I think it's interesting too that, science is ever-changing. It's not a stagnant or a static study, it's meant to be changing. You're always meant to be moving forward and learning and growing off of what you know or what you thought you knew and testing to make sure that what you think you knew is correct or not and it's that willingness. Yeah, it's that willingness to move forward and, to constantly come up with new ideas.

Libby: I’m really excited for you and your future path, whatever direction it goes. I'm going to be waiting in the sidelines listening for where you land.

Chelsea: Thank you.

Libby: So, what are you currently working on? Are you taking classes this summer?

Chelsea: My family is in transition right now. My husband, like I said works… he travels for work and so we're in transition right now to hopefully our forever, or at least for the near future home. And so I took a little bit of a break from classes but I've been really excited to… get started again. Actually, my astronomy professor from my school back in Arizona, which is where I was taking classes in the Community College there in the Maricopa Community College system, had attended a seminar or a symposium seminar conference at the beginning of the summer at Chapel Hill, I think NRAO was

Image Credit: C. Whitford

hosting it, [regarding] radio telescopes and education in classrooms and how do you use astronomy in the classrooms. And so that means that once we get settled in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to jump back into that. Last semester we had done some, I'd done some ... .telescopes… taking images, radio images with a 20-meter telescope out at Green Bank Observatory. And so, we had been working on some coding, trying to look at the Spectra of… I had imaged Andromeda and so I had been working on that and then took a little break. And so hopefully at the end of the summer, as we get settled a little bit more, I'll be able to jump back into working on my images that I took last semester. And then I also… he had told me about NASA having a community of citizen scientists that do exoplanet research called Exoplanet Watch. So, I actually just joined their group maybe a couple of weeks ago.

Libby: How exciting.

Chelsea: Yeah. So, it's really cool. You know there are so many opportunities for even citizens, who are interested in science but don't necessarily want to jump into it as a full-time career but want to have a little bit of a contribution. There are opportunities for people to just get involved. And so, I started that and then we'll see. There are a couple of other projects that I'm hoping to kind of jump into doing some vetting maybe with test research, the test data looking for exoplanets. We'll see. Just trying to work on some of those projects while I can in my free time and then hopefully in the fall I'll start getting back into the math. I started over when I went back to school because I hadn't done math and sciences in 20 years.

Libby: I had to do the same thing. Chelsea: So, I started all over and started, literally from I think it was like high school algebra and then slowly started working my way up and so, I've got to start jumping into the calc 123, all that kind of stuff. So that's where I'm at right now, jumping into the math. I'm a little nervous about it. I'm a little apprehensive, but we'll get there.

Libby: You're going to do great. Just take it slow. They say the best mathematicians are the ones that take the longest to do it.

Chelsea: So, that's the biggest thing I think I've learned, is that it just takes practice. I think that's one of those ideas that science is this exclusive community of geniuses. And absolutely, there are people that are absolute rock stars and geniuses, but there are people that just work really hard and may not do well in school and just keep going and failed classes and they're not straight A students and… you just keep pressing forward and it's just a lot of practice and humility and keeping on going... keeping on chugging.

Libby: Yeah, practice and passion.

Chelsea: Yeah, exactly.

Libby: What advice would you give to someone considering a trajectory similar to yours?

Chelsea: To not be afraid, I think. Don't doubt yourself. It's funny, I'm always having these conversations with my kids when they complain or say I can't do this mommy, we have an eight-year-old, and five-year-old twins, and they're in that learning phase of doing things on their own and figuring out what they're capable of. And we're always telling them, I believe in you, I believe you can do difficult things and hard things. But I have to remember that I need to lead by example with that and that means knowing and believing in myself. That I can do difficult things too. So, when they see that mom can do difficult things, that gives them encouragement and the courage to say, OK, mom can do it, I can do it. So, I think not being afraid to jump in and know that you're not going to know everything. It's going to take time; you'll never know everything. You know, in science again, it's always changing, and you will never know everything. And I think that was something that I was apprehensive about, was not being good enough or not knowing enough to find my footing or find my place. And I think another aspect of that is knowing how to advocate for yourself. I think that comes with life experience. Which is why honestly now that I'm older and on this journey as an adult and am someone who has gone through different phases of life, that's something that I think I can really appreciate, in comparison to some of my younger peers and colleagues who are in the same position, just starting off, but are much younger and haven't had the same kind of life experiences that I've had. That is, learning how to advocate for yourself and that it is OK to advocate.

And also know your limits as well. This summer, I was thinking about taking a math class and my husband said, we've got a lot going on. You might think about that because you want to make sure you're taking advantage of, you know, that you're actually focused on it and learning. And so, knowing when to set your boundaries. And again, that's something that I'm always trying to teach my kids or remind my kids is, it's OK to have boundaries. It's OK to know what your own limits are. And then again, don't be afraid to advocate for yourself if you need something or if you have questions or even just reaching out to professors.

And one of the big things that I've learned in just watching or reading about other people in similar science fields is not being afraid to jump at an opportunity that you may not think you're worthy of having or that you don't have the experience to do, because you are going to learn something even if it's not what you thought. You never know if you will have that opportunity again, but you might just be the perfect person for that opportunity at that time and that's something. You know, that was kind of something that I wasn't quite sure about doing when I first started my classes. That was something I was really apprehensive about saying in the back of my mind. I would even talk to my astronomy professor about it and say, I'm too old to do this. I don't belong in this young group of kids that are doing all these amazing things.

Image Credit: C. Whitford

But, for example, NASA has a program that is called NCAS and it's for community college students who are interested in STEM and math. It's a three-mission scenario where the first mission was where we learned about the history of NASA, and we had to study all the directorates and their purposes and the centers. And then the second mission was getting to work virtually with a team and come up with a moon Rover. Our project is coming up with a Rover for, moon or lunar reconnaissance. And that was a phenomenal opportunity because we got to sit in and work with JPL engineers and NASA engineers, you know, virtually and then. Mission three, I don't know if they're still doing it in person anymore, but when I did it last summer, if you got selected for mission three, you actually spent a week at a NASA site working and learning alongside aeronautics. Yeah, at least our team. I was at Armstrong at Edwards Air Force Base, but it was, you know, coming up with a project and then presenting in front of NASA engineers your ideas. And so when we were introduced to the idea of it in our astronomy class, a year or two years ago…I want to say I was really apprehensive about it. And I said this is not, this is for the younger kids, like let them go, have the opportunities, you know. But then after talking to my husband and my professors and some of my peers, they said, you know what, you're just as much a student as everyone else and you need to do this and, don't forget, to advocate for yourself. If you don't jump at these, these opportunities aren't going to just come to you. You need to jump at them. And so, I think, you know, just not being afraid to try things that you might not necessarily give yourself credit for or might be nervous to do. Just go for it.

Libby: We all deserve these experiences anytime in our lives. So that's great. I'm so happy that you had the courage to reach out for it and grab it. Chelsea: Yeah, it's one of those things that is not just in your studies, it teaches you how to advocate in other aspects of your life. You know, as a parent, we're always advocating for our kids and it teaches you how to have the strength to do that, in different areas of your life. And you become a really great role model for your kids through advocating for yourself as well. Libby: Yeah, absolutely. Did you receive any mentorship yourself along your path? And if so, what would you say is the most important guidance that you've garnered? Chelsea: You know, yeah, I have. I actually had a couple of amazing professors that I'm so thankful for and it was with my two astronomy classes, Dr. Kevin Healy and Dr. Melissa Bunte at Mesa Community College. If anyone's going to Maricopa County Community School, I would absolutely, hands down, recommend either of them. And then one of my math professors, Dr. Professor Sylvia Llamas Flores at Chandler-Gilbert. I was very apprehensive about the math, and I went in saying, I don't know if I can do this. And I actually wound up taking her for two semesters because she was so great and just so encouraging. And so having those professors, at least for me, was a huge part of it. Having people that are willing to teach you and find your value in what you can share, even if you're just at the beginning of your journey. Doctor Healy has been an amazing mentor in giving me chances and opportunities to throw out ideas of, hey, what do you think about me doing this project or researching this aspect? Even if it's not his specialty, he's been along for the ride and said, hey, you know what, yeah, absolutely. I'm here if you have questions. And so yeah, I think it's given me the opportunity again to find my place and develop that confidence and having people that are willing to find and invest their time and their energy into you as a person.

Chelsea: And also understanding. You know, for me as a mom, knowing that my priority is my kids and my family, and that sometimes that has to come first. A lot of times that has to come first. Finding those mentors and those people that are in the field who are willing to understand and to work with you is really important because if they don't understand where you're at, then it's not going to work. That cohesion of learning from each other, because they're learning from us just as much as we're learning from them, you know, people that have been in the field a really long time. And so having that cohesiveness and that understanding was imperative, and was important for me from the get-go. And that was something Doctor Healy said the first time I took his class. I emailed him, and I said, hey professor… you know again advocating for yourself. I asked if the lab would go longer than the times that were slotted for, in the daily schedules in the syllabus and things like that because, I had to pick up my daughter from school and it was a half-hour drive. So, having that understanding from the professors was imperative. And then that support as an adult learner, that understanding that you bring a different view and perspective was just really, really important. And I'm so thankful it's given me such amazing opportunities just to find my own footing and interests that may not necessarily just be in the syllabus for the class, giving me that opportunity to push outside the box a little bit.

Libby: That's awesome. Hats off to your professors for being so progressive and on top of it and role models for the rest of the astronomical community. That's really wonderful to hear.

Libby: What, if any, changes would you like to see for women in astronomy?

Chelsea: I think in education and academia as a whole, understanding that we're not all in the same seasons of life. I think a lot of someone like myself who is starting into this career late when my kids are still little. My ability to focus only on my schooling is not something that I'm able to do. It's a balance. Finding that work-life balance. But it's also important to have people who understand that if I miss a class or if I need to zoom in to the class because my kid is sick and I can't take them to the babysitter or whatever the case is, something like that. You know not just for women, but as parents in general, that's something I think is really important and it's that season of life where I'm in and so I'm able to empathize with other parents that are in similar situations and advocate again for those kinds of changes in academia, in the work environment and then understanding, you know, that single parents, oh man, hats off to single parents. When my husband travels and I'm the sole caregiver, though I might be the sole caregiver for that time frame, I still have him as my advocate and he's in the back seat helping me out, and when he comes home then you know we're a team again and it just continues. But those single parents out there, I don't know, I have so much respect and so much appreciation for their ability to do what they do and sacrifice the way that they do. So, I think having that understanding for those single parents is a really important thing and giving them the same kinds of opportunities. I think there's been a lot of really good changes for women, but at the same time, there's always more that can be done. I think about this one time I was listening to a Zoom call that had been on YouTube, and it was one of the academic societies out there that was doing a talk on something. And I don't remember the specifics of it, but I remember I had to pause it because one of the kids came in, and when I paused it, the screen, you know, it was on zoom and so they have different blocks of faces, and there's probably twenty or thirty people on the blocks on their pictures were up there and it was all older white men that were on the screen. And I'd had those discussions, with my professors previously. And at different times just about how the changes that have happened over the years, things like the double-blind board selections for telescope time and things like that, but it just was one of those cemented moments of, Oh my goodness, OK this really is a thing where it's older white men that kind of encompass much of science and much of the research opportunities. And I find it really encouraging to see other women that are in STEM fields, (...) people of different backgrounds and cultures and ethnicities and races and genders and religions and it's just really important, to have all of that in in the realms of science, to represent the people that are in the community and give them voices and opportunities.

Libby: Yeah, absolutely. And to bring more people into the community too, so, they know that they have allies and it's not just that you're sticking out in that Zoom call as the one woman.

Chelsea: Exactly. Exactly, yeah.

Libby: Speaking of media, what is your favorite TV show or movie?

Chelsea: Oh, you know, we don't watch a ton of TV. When we do, my family, my kids included… we love Expedition Unknown. We love that show. I love that he goes to all these different places. My husband and I have had a really good chance to travel the world and have a lot of different experiences and see a lot of different cultures and things. And so, I love getting to see when he goes to all these different places. And my daughter loves the history aspect of it, you know, especially like the Egyptian… when he goes to the tombs and the pyramids and all that kind of stuff. So, we watch a lot of that kind of stuff. Even it might be as kind of cheesy, but it's fine. And then as a kid, this probably should have been a precursor for, you know, like a, hey, hey, come on, this is what you're going to do eventually. But I remember as a kid watching Contact with Jodie Foster and Matthew McConaughey and being like, this is the best movie ever.

Libby: Another one of my interviewees said the same thing. So, we have two for Contact now.

Chelsea: Oh my gosh. Well, you know, it should have it. I loved the fact that there's Arecibo and the VLA in it, and I've actually gotten to see both of those. I got to go see Arecibo before it collapsed and to see the amazing technology that it was, it's just really cool. (...) Those are the two places that I've always wanted to go and, to have that recollection of being like, oh, Jodie Foster was here... And then I think, (...) Interstellar, that's another, you know, more modern classic. I think it was just such a great movie and, the soundtrack was amazing with Hans Zimmer. And yeah, such a fantastic movie.

Libby: Yeah, the soundtrack to that is incredible. I put it on Spotify sometimes. It's so good.

Chelsea: I do too. It is. And it's funny cause, some people say they have to study in like complete silence and some people have to have a TV show going on. I listen to music too. Either piano music or classical, but I have to have some sort of instrumentation or instrumental music going on in the background.

Libby: We'll have to share Spotify lists. I do the same thing. Helps me focus.

Chelsea: Yeah, same.

Libby: Yeah. I love a good swelling soundtrack score.

Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. It does. It keeps me focused.

Libby: Your cat has been joining us this entire interview and it's been just a pleasure.

Chelsea: Oliver.

Libby: I feel like I should have asked him a question.

Chelsea: He's just having fun enjoying the sun.

Libby: I love it. Is there anything else that you would like to share before we get off our interview today?

Chelsea: I don't think so. I appreciate this. Thank you so much for having me. This has been such a pleasure. And I just hope that maybe, even though I'm very early on in my journey, in my career and aspirations, I just hope that it helps other people that might be apprehensive like I was to jump into something that they might not think that they're capable of doing. Because again, like I tell my kids, we are capable of doing difficult things and it's just learning to take the good or the bad and know that it's going to be hard but that as more of us jump into these positions, especially as a woman and as a mom and I just hope that those of us that are out there and in these spots and in these places can use our voices to kind of bring others along with us and encourage other women and other people that are in different seasons of their lives who might be hesitant to do it, to just say, you know what? We only have one life, at least I think we do. I don't know, who knows, but you know, just, just do it. And yeah, you can always, if you don't love it, then you can always change, but you'll always have that kind of, notion in the back of your brain that says, oh, I don't know, maybe I should have done it if you don't. And so there are more of us out there than you think who are going along this journey too and paving the way. There are people that have gone, women that have gone before us, and women that will come up behind us. And so it's just a great feeling to be a part of that community.

Libby: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me for this. I feel inspired. I'm about ready to go down to Community College to get myself some astronomy classes.

Chelsea: That's the one thing I will say is that I think there's this notion that you have to go big, and, you have to start at the four year or you have to go to these huge schools, which of course, you know, there's benefits to both. But that's not always the case. That's not always the reality for a lot of people. And I would never discount community colleges for anyone. And there's several astronomers and astrophysicists, there are PhD candidates that, I follow on social media that have kind of had that same route of starting off at Community School, and for a lot of people, they don't have the option of going to a four-year. And again, my journey has, I went to community and then four,-year and now back at community and there is such value in community colleges. And I think, you know, when you asked about… that's probably something I should have mentioned in academia, what would you change, is that I would love to see that the community colleges get more support for undergrad research and undergrad opportunities and as being a gateway to these bigger universities that a lot of people don't always have access to right out the gate. So don't underestimate Community College because there are a lot of professors that are willing and wanting to share their time and their resources and give students opportunities that they might not have.

Libby: Absolutely. Community College is a wonderful step. I did it myself and the professors tend to have more time to work with you. And so if there's anybody watching this that feels hesitant about taking that first step, that's a really great place to start.

Chelsea: So absolutely. And they have connections too. You know, they've gone through the whole gamut of classes and degrees and experiences as well. And so that's a great way to just get started. And if you're not sure about it and you're not sure that this is something, you know, whatever it is that you're studying is something that you want to do for the long term. That's a great way to kind of jump in and test out the waters first and see what resources are out there and then decide from there.

Libby: Awesome.

Chelsea: Well, you are too. Thank you for doing this. I'm so excited to hear, you know, all the different interviews and read everyone's experiences and connect with other people. So, thank you for doing this. This is amazing.

Libby: Absolutely. I will make sure to stay in touch with you and find out where you've landed on your journey. Chelsea: Same. Same here.

Libby: Bye.

Chelsea: Thanks. Bye.