Elizabeth: Sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Elizabeth Apala. I work at Goddard Space Flight Center as a senior research assistant, in the Astrophysics Science Division, I've been doing this for about four years now. I joined up in November of 2020, so we're coming up on my anniversary. Outside of that, I am a part of APS (American Physical Society), and I also work as an adjunct professor at Eastern Oklahoma State College. I'm fully remote, for my more significant roles. I am located in southeastern Oklahoma and have been here for all of my time working at NASA. I've been very thankful for that. I was born and raised here in Oklahoma and so I have a very strong connection with this community and environment, especially as a Native American representing my Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes.
Libby: Awesome. What inspired you to choose a path in astronomy and astrophysics in the first place out there in Oklahoma?
Elizabeth: Well, of course in Oklahoma there's beautiful skies and a lot of really, really kind people. When you combine those two, I mean, you just want to be a part. So when I was about three years old in Head Start, I wanted to be an astronaut, as so many people in the field do. And after that, you know, I was thinking, well, is that really realistic? I had a parent that was in the military and he sadly wasn't able to be here a lot for my childhood. So I started looking around and I'm like, how do I combine the sky and my love for being able to stay around for my future family? And so I was just like, well, maybe I can be a fighter pilot, which would have taken me a little bit away. But that was where my head went. And I was thinking, meteorology, it's all about the sky. It's all about getting as far away as I could, you know, while still having my feet on the ground. But when I was looking into high school…my high school that I was entering offered an astronomy class and they also, with the help of the Choctaw Nation, my science teacher had gotten an observatory built for that school, which was amazing. It was a great, great gift and blessing. So I gladly jumped into that class as a freshman. I met my longtime mentor, Mr. Phillip Scott, and he and his wife took me under their wing. They made sure that I went to an astronomy camp that following summer. They helped my mom and my father, you know, get up enough money to send me on a flight to Tucson, AZ. And I met my first astrophysicist there. My mind was made up at 15 years old that that was what I was going to do. So I got my hands on that telescope at that high school and I got to do astrophotography and, you know, public outreach and, you know, just getting my feet wet in the whole field. And I just, oh, I loved it. I loved it so much. So I continued on. I got my bachelor's from East Central University in Ada, OK, and got my master's at Towson University to follow that.
Libby: What an amazing path to hear. So amazing that you figured out what you wanted to do at such a young age and were able to stick with it. What about astronomy excites you and kept you attached to your path?
Elizabeth: Well, when I was very, very young, it was always because I wanted to be an astronaut. My parents took me down...we were on our way to Disney World and we had the opportunity to watch a space shuttle launch and we watched it and it was amazing and I clung on to that for a very, very long time. And the more that I started to learn about astronomy, you know, the more that I wanted to learn, I had that thirst. And I think that how I was able to keep on going with my dream largely falls on my mom. You know, she always looked for different ways of pushing me forward. I'm a first-generation college student, the first college graduate in my family. And so while my family didn't exactly know what I was doing, I had a lot of support and with my mentor meeting him when I was fourteen via e-mail, cause I wanted to be part of the astronomy club so badly and you know, taking that class and trying to figure out, you know, the next steps from there. I mean, I always had that fuel that I could gain from either family or Mr. Scott or even his wife, his daughter. So yeah, it just made it to where I could actually grasp something. You know, some people, grow up around Houston or DC or Greenbelt or all around these NASA sites and some people grow up around a lot of museums. I grew up around farms so I couldn't draw on the community per se and there was a point in my life where I was just like to be in astronomy means to be an astronaut. That's it. But you know, the world tends to open up the more you have support and the more you want it. So I was able to draw on that knowledge and the want to keep my passion alive.
Libby: I had a similar relationship to space living in Oregon because there are no NASA centers around here. And so it's kind of this ambiguous idea of what it is like to work within space and what it all means. And so I think there's a lot of hidden talent in these areas and in these states that are removed and not surrounded by it that can be tapped into.
Elizabeth: Yeah, totally.
Libby: So what about astronomy do you find challenging and what have you done to overcome these challenges?
Elizabeth: Well, I think that the hardest part about astronomy is probably the size of the field and it's a small field and so you know we have to work harder to try to get our foot in the door sometimes because it can get really competitive. I think that how I try to push through that is to make meaningful connections to one person that could lead to another person. You know, it may be a slower route to take. But that's similar to how I got through with Goddard and into my job there. I started with a connection when I was in grad school, my first year in my master's program and I was able to go and watch the interns present their research and the girl that I talked to, she's now retired, but she was just like, hey, I'll give you a tour. And so I did my research and I really liked this girl named Amber Straughn, Dr. Amber Straughn. And I was just like, you know what? One day I would love to work with her. So I plopped into her office. Right in front of her as a grad student. You know, I didn't know what I was doing, but I was just like, hey, let's work together. Let's do this right now. And she's like, she's like, no, I don't have anything right now, but maybe later. Lo and behold, her and Dr. Rita Sambruna, they're the ones who are my bosses right now. So, I was able to get my foot in the door like that and there are so many people in our field that are so kind, so kind. And I just, I appreciate that mentality so much because we're not a proud, cocky kind of group. We're a very caring group of individuals that just love science. We're just a bunch of nerds. We just want, we just want to do science. And I'm very, I'm so happy that we have that in our field. So yeah.
Libby: I feel like a lot of it has to do with the international aspect and the size of the community. Everyone has to work together across the globe towards these common goals and it creates this kind of like cosmic consciousness in a way.
Elizabeth: Yes, yes, I love it. I love it.
Libby: I've loved every one I've met so far within the astronomy and astrophysics communities too. So great job community for being inclusive.
Elizabeth: Yes.
Libby: What do you think is a common misperception about astronomers and or astronomy/astrophysics as a discipline and educational path? Loaded question.
Elizabeth: This is probably my favorite question. OK. Everybody that you tell, Oh yeah, I'm an astrophysicist or I'm a physicist or I'm an astronomer, whatever you choose to label yourself in the field as your number one response is going to be, oh, that sounds so hard. You must be so smart. And I'm like, no, no, it doesn't take a genius to join the field. It just takes somebody that wants to be in the field. That's it. You know, I think that a lot of people, they just get scared off because, you know, when you think of physics, you think of mathematics. And it's true. Mathematics plays a heavy part in the field. But there's so much you can do outside of being a heavy theoretical, you know, astrophysicist doing heavy coding modeling. There's so much more to the field than that. It makes up some of the field, very true, but you don't have to be a genius to do what you want. You know, there's a big, strong statement. There are huge statements that you can make when it comes to grit. Grit, and determination. That is the most success-driven thing that you can ever have. It's not about being born a natural genius. It wasn’t like that. I struggled a lot. But you just have to have that grit and determination and you can go so far and you know it is so much more than just our field. It's anywhere. So yeah, that's something that I try to stress.
Libby: It's really wise knowledge to pass on and great advice. And I think that is a massively common misperception that I've heard in the field is that of the lone genius.
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Libby: And I think a lot of that comes from the history of the field in general and you know how it was formed in the first place, the lost vestiges of the past. But so bringing it to the present day, what are you currently working on right now?
Elizabeth: Well, right now I'm working with the Choctaw Nation with their YES program. It's for individuals that are 16 to I do believe 21 or 22. So it works with later high school students and early bachelor students and they fund tribal members to get jobs somewhere for an internship time frame. So that we enter the field and know it with a little bit of experience. But I'm trying to work with them and bridge them to NASA Goddard right now. Because there are a lot of scientists who are willing to take on students but just don't have the funding to pay. And so I'm trying to bridge that gap so we can have more minority representation, especially in our Native American population because we just don't have it. I know I'm one of very few scientists that are Native American in the field and I just, I really want to make sure that other Natives know that they can do this.
Libby: Yeah, I strive for that to happen as well. That's why I searched for you for this interview because there are few and far between indigenous Americans within the field. And in order to have diversity in what we can find out and learn, we need to have diversity of people. So I fully support you on your path forward. And I think that's just so awesome that you're looking for a way to bridge that gap with Goddard. That's really neat. So what are your near future plans?
Elizabeth: Well, right now, due to budget cuts, I am looking for new positions so I can continue my efforts in astronomy. My contract is expiring December 31st, sadly, but hopefully, I won't be gone for too long. But as my plans are right now, I will continue to work with APS. And teach, you know, as an adjunct at my local Community College and just see how the wind blows me and where I can help out. Because, you know, in the end, my biggest goal is to help people out, especially the younger folks, to, you know, achieve their dreams in the field.
Libby: So what are your aspirations with all of this? Where do you see yourself when you're like 80 years old?
Elizabeth: Well, by 80, I hope I'm retired.
Libby: I hope so too.
Elizabeth: But for as long as I live, I hope to just be able to do outreach. As long as I'm helping people in the field, my goals are being completed. You know, if it wasn't for Mr. Scott, back in high school, when I was, it wasn't even when high school even started. It was the summer before. If it wasn't for him, you know, guiding me through to the camp and, you know, introduced me to how to work a telescope and interact with the community. I wouldn't…I wouldn't be anywhere, near what I am now. And so if I can be somebody else's, Mr. Scott…Oh, I would be so proud of myself. You know, my life goal would just be complete.
Libby: That's beautiful. Speaking of Mr. Scott, what is the most important guidance that you think he gave you along the way?
Elizabeth: Oh, my gosh, that's such a hard question. He's still active in my life. I go over to his house and have dinner with him and his wife. They were at my wedding. But, I think that him just taking my phone calls, you know, and talking to me as I had, minor lapses during grad school or even undergrad, I think that was the biggest thing because he knew that I could do it and as long as I had somebody in my corner like that, that helped a lot. He believed in me and he sees me as like his daughter. His daughter's name is Emily and I thought that it was so amazing and I'm so blessed to be able to be compared to her because she was a firefighter, volunteer. She was fighting cancer, OK? She was going through chemotherapy actively. She saw a house burning down and she ran in there. And she took a man out of there, saved his life. And you know, she loves astronomy as well. She actually went to the same undergraduate institution that I did. But to be compared to somebody like that, that's enough to keep people, you know, on the up and up.
Libby: I think he sounds like an amazing mentor and just a friend in general. What advice would you give to someone considering a trajectory similar to yours?
Elizabeth: Oh, you know, no matter what, where you're at in the field, there's always going to be somebody that says you can't, right? There's always going to be like, oh, that you're taking on too much. You scored this and that on XYZ exam or whatever. Don't take them too seriously. Because you will often outgrow the naysayers and there's no reason, there's no reason for them to be that way. But if you can kind of use that to fuel your success, then I suggest that that's how you do it. Because you know, at one point I had a naysayer. That said, I couldn't do it, that I would collapse. And this was when I was in high school. A person that worked at my high school went up to my mother and said, you're putting too much on your kids. They're just going to burn out. They're not going to be anybody. You need to stop… because I wanted to take concurrent classes at my local Community College. I drove by her house, I know where she still lives, and every time I see her house, I haven't seen her face since I graduated. But I think… I proved you wrong. You'll never know. But I did more than what you thought. And that's going to happen a lot in anybody's life. You know, you just kind of, find that fuel to guide your destiny, you know?
Libby: It seems like what she provided for you is that combination of extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. You know, like she like started a fire within you that you were able to just like, go forth and rock.
Elizabeth: Yes. I was just like, you know what? I'll prove you wrong. Yes.
Libby: Sometimes we have to have those little gnats, right? But yeah, it seems like you might have been victim to a lot of unconscious bias at a young age, and that's very common for women, especially women in STEM to experience. So what would you like to see? What changes would you like to see for women in astronomy going forward?
Elizabeth: I always, always will advocate for more women in astronomy. I just think as long as we can be as diverse as possible, we can support each other in as many ways as we can in science and anything else. And I also want to see more support for women in our field having families, because there's a lot of negativity, I feel like, that women come up against when they want children, but also are scientists. And we shouldn't feel the need to choose one or the other. We're perfectly capable of being parents in any way, shape, or form and doing our jobs. We can, we have enough love in our hearts for both. And we shouldn't feel guilty about anything that we do in our personal lives.
Libby: Absolutely. There's a lot of research out there about the stigma of motherhood for women in STEM. And about how it affects the attrition of women in STEM. Many women, especially in astronomy, leave mid-career due to those societal pressures. So definitely things need to change in that direction. And things like, you know, in-house childcare, that's one thing that could be done. There's a lot of good research in the mix on that. I suggest everybody out there take a look at it. So we're going to take a little curve ball here. What's your favorite movie or TV show?
Elizabeth: Anne of the Green Gables All the Way, with Megan Follows. That one from the '80s or nineties.
Libby: OK, I remember watching that when I was a kid.
Elizabeth: Yes, it is my favorite. It's my favorite book series. It's my favorite movie. Well, it's kind of like a movie series trilogy. I just love it. And so many times, you know, you read the book and the movie, it doesn't live up to it. But the movie, the movie actually lived up to it. So it's my comfort food of movies.
Libby: I think I'm gonna have to put that on the screen one of these mornings soon. Just take a relaxing day and go out to the pasture.
Elizabeth: Yes. I just love to curl up with like a sweet treat, maybe some popcorn with some M and Ms in it with some hot tea and just nest on the couch watching my Anne of Green Gables.
Libby: So cozy and the perfect way to end any week. Well, this has been such an awesome interview. Thank you so much for being here. Can't wait to share your story and to keep tabs on where you end up in your journey. Keep on doing that outreach and just being you. And yeah, is there anything else that you'd like to add before we get off?
Elizabeth: No, I don't think so. I'm just so happy that we were able to connect and do this interview. I think that this has been really, really fun.
Libby: Yeah. Thank you. Well, have a great rest of your day and I will make sure to get ahold of you soon.
Elizabeth: Sounds good. See you later.
